MF1 Forum

Other => Formula One => Topic started by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:35:23 AM

Title: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:35:23 AM
No, not a compendium of upcoming 'F1 Rocks' performances (sorry), instead join me in welcoming an exclusive home for the interminable story that is F1's proposed 2013 engine regs.  Previous coverage has been haphazardly dumped into the 'News Snippets' thread (or elsewhere, I forget), but given that the sport seems determined to drag this story out I've decided to cram all pertinent developments into one spot.  Right here.

Beginning with differences in opinion between various parties: http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2011/06/17/f1-engine-debate-rages-on/


Quote from: ChrillI have to side with that McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh said not long go; Turbocharged V6 engines. It's a downgrade, but not to a 1.6 litre straight four. You find those engines in a Ford Mondeo, damnit. I would personally support a move back to the V10s of past times, but I know it will never happen. Formula 1 has lost its soul with all these damned rule changes..


Yep.  I'm hoping a V6 turbo-shaped compromize will be reached.  Although I'd still like to see a limit put on fuel consumption (not too low!) and give the engineers pretty much free rein on engine size, configuration, etc.


And here it is, a V6 turbo-shaped compromize (with a one year delay included as a Brucie bonus): http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13878359.stm


Quote from: ChrillFor 2014 as well. Gives us two more years of these engines. Will this postpone all the other rules for 2013, or will we have 3 major rule overhauls in four years? (2011, 2013, 2014)


I believe the delay affects only the engines, with upgraded KERS & aero revisions kept on the 2013 schedule.  I'm sure the Beeb presenters will discuss the issue this weekend, will report back if all rule changes have shifted.


Quote from: ChrillI hope that they dooo have a sports bar in Skala! If they do, I hope my friends bother joining me into town on Sunday around 3pm local!


Guess that depends on how much 'quiet recuperation' they require after Saturday night.  And whether they're F1 nuts.


Engine delay & shift to V6 design confirmed by FIA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13878359.stm

Good to see max revs have been upped from the proposed 12,000 to 15,000.  Done to allay concerns over damaging the aural experience of F1.


Dear reader, I imagine that, like myself, barely an hour passes when you don't throw back your head & wail at the top of your lungs: WHY, OH GOD, WHY DID THEY NEARLY RUN WITH 4-CYLINDER TURBOS.  Well now we have an answer... Audi committed itself to entering F1 providing that was the direction taken: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/52832.html

Audi then promptly backtracked on its threatened foray into F1, leaving us with an engine proposal almost universally unpopular.


Reporters get a sneak peek of Merc's V6 turbo: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/01/13/mercedes-f1-turbo-engine-breaks-cover-and-it-sounds-sweet/

So it's slightly quieter but with a deeper sound.

First I've read of the 100 kg (about 140 litres) fuel allowance for 2014; quite a substantial drop from the 150-odd kilos of fuel they load up with under current regulations.


Quote from: ChrillWell then, need to make the engines a lot more fuel efficient. I guess they weren't REALLY made with that in mind at first.


They'll be loaded up with energy recovery systems (kinetic & exhaust heat) to aid them in this task, plus of course they're down-sized turbos to begin with.

Another hint that Honda engines could make a welcome return: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/02/26/honda-may-have-secret-f1-turbo-engine-project-in-progress/


Quote from: ChrillMcLaren-Honda? Yes please.


Has a lovely ring to it.  Now if we could just get them to run in the old Marlboro livery....


Quote from: CabanacatSome say booze is just as addicting as cigarettes.  Oh well rules are rules.

I support a turbocharger idea.  But I want it on the current V8's :).


Quote from: ChrillI fail to see why cigarette and alcohol branding would be any different. Ban both or ban none, really. If we're on that sponsorship topic again


I'd say neither, but I'm sure the EU will get around to banning alcohol advertizing during this decade - and presumably gambling ads; and they are the people who run our countries now....


Quote from: ChrillSo, we'll end up with silly telecom and bank marketing. Vodafone, Santander, etc.? I can't even begin to imagine those brands on F1 cars..


I take your (sarcastic) point in the spirit intended :) but I will casually mention that F1 is not exactly overburdened with sponsorship cash these days, so let's hope no other revenue streams (e.g. from alcohol brands) are denied to the teams.


Quote from: ChrillYou are indeed right. I'LL START A SWEDISH TEAM, BACKED BY IKEA. Yup. They're all rich and such. Engines manufactured by Koenigsegg. Minor sponsors include H&M and Absolut Vodka. Or Kopparbergs Cider.

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2qxcpx0.png)

This is only slightly Photoshopped. Believe it or not, I based this car on the Williams car. I know, it's hard to see.


What remarkable skills you possess; that photoshopping blends seamlessly onto the, what did you say it was, Williams?

Just need a fancy, headline-grabbing name for your team....


Quote from: ChrillYes. The name is a work in progress.


FlatpaCabba Racing? Hint to Ikea and to Abba. Very good.
IKEABBA?
Svea Rike F1...
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:45:48 AM
Are Honda & McLaren already hard at it (the 'it' being designing a V6 turbo): http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/03/03/reports-claim-honda-engineers-already-working-at-mclaren/


Quote from: Chrillhttp://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/3/14419.html
Force India are aiming to remain in Formula 1, clearly.


All that pointless talk of a switch to Ferrari power; still, never hurts to have a possible alternative supplier when negotiating a new deal.

Marussia to run Ferrari or Merc engines for 2014 (well, Renault not interested in supplying them so who else would they use?): http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/03/29/marussia-to-use-ferrari-or-mercedes-power-in-2014/


Quote from: ChrillMarussia Ferrari is the logical bet since they can just take Toro Rosso's place and Ferrari would then deal with the same number of teams.


V6 turbos "sound like lawnmowers": http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/04/04/ecclestone-still-making-noise-about-turbo-engine-sounds/

So according to Bernie the engines won't be revving to their 16,000 RPM limit because the maximum fuel flow rate is set too low.  Oh goody.


Quote from: Chrillhttp://www.yallaf1.com/2013/04/18/new-turbo-f1-cars-could-be-five-seconds-slower-in-2014/

Bernie is afraid the next-gen F1 cars will be only slightly faster than current GP2 cars (Caterham would then be slower than GP2, I suppose). Article also mentions that Sauber and McLaren may both run Honda engines in 2015.


Fatter and slower with every passing year.  I doubt we'll lose five seconds for 2014, but a two- or three-second deficit wouldn't surprise.  As little Olly Twist said: Please, Sir, I want some more... powerful engines in Formula One.


Quote from: ChrillIt's a shame that cars from ten years ago were so superior to the cars of today. It's not as though 290 kilometres per hour is safer than 305 kilometres per hour. Reducing top speed and also aerodynamics in order to "promote safety and overtaking" is silly. If we are to have DRS, at least let the cars go fast so that the car in front can still reach some sort of speed. If speeds increase overall, it would be more difficult to catch a tow and therefore it would be more difficult to make a DRS overtake stick, although it would remain very possible still.


Quote from: LjudTop speed is overrated. Look at RBR, they have usually lowest or among lowest top speeds, yet they're winning.


Quote from: ChrillI meant top speed overall, not "Fastest at the end of the longest straight"


Just another story on a future McLaren-Honda tie-up: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/13/mclaren-set-for-free-honda-engines-as-of-2015/

Those prices quoted for customer V6 turbo packages - Renault stated at EUR 20 and EUR 23 million per season, Mercedes at 17-19 million, and Ferrari reportedly just EUR 15 and EUR 17 million.  I know there's no link between the two, but this pricing order is a perfect reversal of buying these companies' road-going machines.


It's now confirmed that Honda will provide engines & ERS to McLaren from 2015: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/5/14561.html


Quote from: ChrillIndeed. Woohoo! Rumour has it we will also get a Sauber-Honda from 2015. That would leave us like this:

Mercedes-Mercedes
Force India-Mercedes

Red Bull-Renault
Lotus-Renault
Toro Rosso-Renault
Williams-Renault
Caterham-Renault

McLaren-Honda
Sauber-Honda

Ferrari-Ferrari
Marussia-Ferrari

This is assuming Toro Rosso goes for Renault and Marussia opts for Ferrari of course. But I believe the most recent rumour made it clear that they were.


Quote from: LjudI also doubt the lot will stick with Renault assuming they don't have some many-year contracts (especially well, all of them except Red Bulls I guess), since Renault engines are supposed to be the most expensive. Can easily see Lotus, Caterham or Williams switching, probably not to Ferrari, but maybe Merc or Honda.


Lotus has been thrown out there as a potential Honda convert.  Perhaps Renault will be obliged to lower its sticker price if too many others look to be deserting.


Quote from: ChrillCaterham can't switch, basically. The car brand Caterham has a deal with Renault. They're connected.

Some rumours have emerged that Marussia will run as Marussia-Mugen in 2014 to test out the Honda F1 engine before they run as Marussia-Honda and McLaren-Honda in 2015.


There's me thinking that Marussia-Ferrari was a done deal, but I guess we haven't yet had it confirmed; interesting if they go the Mugen route.


Quote from: ChrillWell, if they get used as guinea pigs by Honda they will surely get a cheaper deal. Running as Mugen will show people "No, this is not the final Honda engine, don't expect much just yet" and will keep Honda safe for when McLaren joins in 2015. Also, the engine may be great and help Marussia up into the midfield. Who knows?


Morten Harket?
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:49:51 AM
Quote from: Chrillwww.yallaf1.com/2013/05/17/most-teams-unable-to-afford-2014-f1-v6-turbo-engines/

"He wrote that, world champions and 'works' partner Red Bull aside, 2014 customers Williams, Caterham, Toro Rosso and even the highly competitive Lotus cannot afford to pay French supplier Renault the fee of EUR 23 million per season.

Mercedes, supplying McLaren and Force India, has reportedly lowered its price to between 18 and 20 million, while Sauber and Marussia are being asked for 15m by Ferrari."

Who knew Ferrari would become the budget option? If those numbers are correct, I would expect some of the teams may consider a surprise switch to Ferrari engines. Lotus-Ferrari. Caterham-Ferrari. Williams-Ferrari.


Quote from: LjudWell, that's what I said. Lotus have said they plan on sticking with Renault for the time being. Which can mean anything. Williams-Ferrari? You're not serious, are you. Williams. Ferrari. Ahem, no go. Sorry. :P


Quote from: Chrillhttp://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/07626

"In summary, Renault is likely to power Red Bull (Infiniti), Toro Rosso and Caterham. Mercedes will supply its works team, McLaren - who will later switch to Honda - Force India, Williams and possibly Lotus, whilst Ferrari will power its works team, Sauber, Marussia and maybe Lotus."


Likely to be Williams-Mercedes from next year: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/26/mercedes-confirms-williams-engine-negotiations/

Renault-Toro Rosso confirmed for 2014: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/26/renault-confirms-toro-rosso-engine-supply-deal/


Quote from: Chrill
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/5/14622.html
Williams-Mercedes now also confirmed. Does this mean Williams will effectively replace McLaren as the second in command at Mercedes?

2014:
Mercedes:
Mercedes
McLaren (Honda from 2015)
Williams
Force India

Renault:
Red Bull (Infiniti)
Toro Rosso
Caterham

Ferrari:
Ferrari
Sauber

Unconfirmed:
Lotus
Marussia

Also.... Rumours of Ford going for a 2015 entry as well: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/30/report-links-ford-with-f1-turbo-era-return/


... which would mean five engine suppliers for what will likely be ten teams; making it tricky for anyone to supply three teams - the 'optimal' level according to some bloke from Renault.


Quote from: CabanacatHonda will fail unless cheap.
Ford will be too lazy.

The teams starting the first year with the new engines will be the teams of choice.  New manufacturers can't be expected to jump in and create something worthy can they?


Quote from: LjudSure they can succeed in making a good engine, why not?
Anyway, it's worth noting engine development will be frozen again after 2018 I think. With every year less changes/corrections allowed from 2014 or 2015 on. Also: most suppliers are going for long term contracts (see Williams and Mercedes for 5 years), because even if they switch after 2018 (or whatever year it is), and they get some interesting info to other engine manufacturer it won't be of any use, because of development ban.


Quote from: Chrillhttp://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-227047.html
Engines to be more powerful next season than they are now.


Well, more powerful for qualifying.  For the race, cars will be limited to 100 kg of fuel, down from 150 kg under current rules, the expected consequence of which is engines being kept comfortably below their 15,000 rpm limit - exactly how far down dependent on track characteristics.  Of course this is just so much conjecture at the moment, none outside the engine co's can have a handle on how thirsty each V6 will be.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:53:24 AM
Quote from: ChrillFerrari fear that 2014 will see a return to frequent retirements before teams figure out their new engines. I'm sure they're right. Yolo.

http://grandprix247.com/2013/07/02/ferrari-expect-reliability-to-be-an-issue-for-new-2014-turbo-engines/

Also, these numbers are crayzee.

The energy recovery system will be powered off the exhaust and will deliver around an extra 160 horsepower for over 30 seconds each lap. The engines will have a rev limit of 15000 rpm and have to last for around 5000 kilometres as opposed to the current 2000.


ERS will be powered off the exhaust and braking energy, just to correct the people whose living comes from writing this stuff.  Can't remember whether ERS will deploy automatically (i.e. determined by throttle position) or still by driver pushing a button.


This will thrill Chrill, F1 cars set to be even slower next year: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/07/03/f1-cars-two-to-three-seconds-slower-in-2014-whiting/

Nonsensical statement alert: "I think the efficiency is the key thing," he [Charlie Whiting] added. "Just to be absolutely clear, though, you won't see cars running out of fuel because there's no limit on the amount of fuel a team can put in the car. There's a limit to how much they can use during the race."

So teams can only use 100 kg fuel in a race, but they won't run out because they can choose to begin the race with an extra 10/20/30 kg sloshing about the tank.  Umm, but then if they use any of that extra presumably disqualification will swiftly follow once Mr. FIA checks the mandatory fuel-flow meters.  So, erm, who would ever start a race with more than 100 kg of fuel onboard?


Quote from: Ljud101 kg. Roughly, you can't end race with an empty tank, due to those fuel check-ups. But yes, I have to agree, complete nonsense there from Charlie.


Oh yes, I clean forgot the extra kilo for post-race fuel sample.


Quote from: ChrillSince we're down to 22 cars now, is it not time we open up the grid for new participants come 2015? I'm sure with the new engine formula there would be interest from several car makers. Rumours have been floating around regarding Volkswagen/Porsche, Audi, Hyundai and Toyota. There is technically room for two more teams but maybe they should only add one more team to the series. Unless of course poor Sauber goes boom. Or Marussia. Or Caterham. Or Force India. Or even Lotus. Or maybe Williams.


Quote from: LjudAudi/Porsche already said they don't want F1. Toyota just left, I can hardly see them returning right away, even if Honda is doing the same. Hyundai? I dunno.. perhaps. Point is, it costs too much. And Bernie doesn't want more teams. He wants less teams, 10 max. I'm sure he wouldn't mind being down to 5 teams, and 3 cars per team or 4 even. But then again, he just said that Sauber belongs to F1 and shouldn't be allowed to err leave the scene. Surprisingly enough.

In 5 years time I can't see Marussia or Caterham still being in F1. Force India, Williams and Sauber will follow shortly if not before. Lotus may leave as early as next season but they may as well stay for 10 more years. Odd with them. Mercedes seems to be in a similar position as Lotus, albeit for different reasons. So Mr. Ecclestone might even live to see the 5 team field and signor Montezemolo will finally get his wet dream come true. Of course, by then we'll only be racing on tracks with max. 10k spectators. On a good day.


What Ljud said.  Costs are simply too high and the payouts too uneven.  Unless Bernie has a change of heart on how 2014's dosh will be divvied up, I don't see us having even eleven teams by the end of next year.  Can't for the life of me think why any car co. would want to spend vast sums of money when the prospects of success are so low; most likely you're talking several years of $100 million losses before even nibbling at the heels of the top runners... I'd love to see that business presentation put to the top bods of Audi, Hyundai, etc.

Alternative is to follow Merc's route and purchase an existing team, which is surely a far, far more attractive proposition than starting from scratch, but of course doesn't add to the field.  Of course it goes without saying that the likelihood of any independent racing teams joining the ranks lie somewhere between no chance and fat chance.


Rumours and hearsay suggest Merc's V6 turbo will be the power of the field: http://grandprix247.com/2013/08/15/mercedes-f1-turbo-engine-to-have-100-bhp-advantage-in-2014/

Worth mentioning (again) that in 2014 cars will be limited to 100 kg of fuel for race day.  So you can whack that horsepower-pumping, fire-breathing, tarmac-shredding beast of a qualifying engine in the back of your car, but on Sunday afternoon it will boil down to fuel efficiency.  I'm so excited by the prospect.


Quote from: ChrillI'm worried about the prospect. The fuel saving is absurdly low. Engines will barely be running at all. Adrian Sutil said that in the first few races (before teams figure out fuel consumption properly), we may very well see drivers having to turn down the output massively over the last few laps or even run out of juice completely.


Yep, people (Bernie, I think) successfully pushed for a higher rev-limit than the FIA initially suggested, but with so little fuel on-board teams will likely stay well below the permitted 15,000 RPMs - at least on race day.  What is the point of constraining F1 cars in this way?  Sometimes seems the FIA is concocting rules solely to piss me off, in which case they are bloody excellent at their jobs.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:56:56 AM
Exhaustive rundown detailing how development of the V6 turbos will be gradually frozen: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/16/fia-to-guard-against-extreme-engines-in-2014/


Sauber commits to a new multi-year technical partnership with Ferrari; in short this means their engines, gearboxes, and ERS will sport natty little prancing horse badges: http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/04/sauber-confirm-use-ferrari-v6-turbo-engine-in-2014/


Quote from: ChrillWell then, the engine situation is clearing up. Caterham have confirmed Renault, yes? Only Lotus remain, then.


Given Boullier's recent statement that Lotus would welcome increased involvement (and money!) from Renault, surely the engine situation for them is set.  I'd actually assumed a deal had already been done... guess they're discussing the finer details of a new contract.


Quote from: ChrillI guess so.

Ferrari:
Ferrari
Sauber
Marussia

Mercedes:
Mercedes
McLaren
Force India
Williams

Renault:
Red Bull
Toro Rosso
Caterham
(Lotus)

Looks fair to me. Then, in 2015, McLaren will leave Mercedes and go all Honda on our asses.


... but will someone besides McLaren go to Honda?  Renault has talked of the advantage in having multiple teams running their engines, so one would expect Honda to try and lure at least one more team to their side.


Quote from: ChrillMost probably, yes. What are the plans for Force India, Lotus, Williams and Caterham in 2015? Sauber seems to have confirmed a multi-year contract as has Marussia.


Force India in long-term agreement with Mercedes: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/3/14419.html

This piece on the Williams/Merc. tie-up also states long-term: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/5/14622.html

Caterham to use Renault powertrain for 2014-2016 seasons: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/caterham-confirms-renault-engines-for-2014-2016/

Lotus is still up in the air, or at least not finalized, but I'd be amazed if they don't conclude a non-short-term deal with Renault.  So, barring a new entrant in 2015 (fat chance), that leaves Honda with, umm, McLaren.  Well, I'm sure one of the above would happily break a contract if Honda's offering was sufficiently compelling, i.e. several million quid cheaper.


New engine format to favour works teams, says Brawn: http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/18/works-teams-to-have-v6-engine-advantage-says-brawn/

Not surprising that McLaren was keen as mustard to get back with Honda.


Quote from: LjudEngine comparison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtrSNFjkGdU
A bit off-topic perhaps, but I like them sounds.


Ha, I was just expecting a vid with recordings of the actual engines, but that was ten times better.  Cheers for the linky.


Quote from: Ljud
Quote from: Penfold
Just another story on a future McLaren-Honda tie-up: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/13/mclaren-set-for-free-honda-engines-as-of-2015/

Those prices quoted for customer V6 turbo packages - Renault stated at EUR 20 and EUR 23 million per season, Mercedes at 17-19 million, and Ferrari reportedly just EUR 15 and EUR 17 million.  I know there's no link between the two, but this pricing order is a perfect reversal of buying these companies' road-going machines.
Heh. Renault the most expensive. That must've been a great deal, yup. Heh. Oh, the irony.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 03:59:57 AM
Quote from: Chrillhttp://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/11/21/horner-makes-case-twin-turbo-v6s-standard-ers/

Here here, this is not a bad idea from Horner. Revamp of engines from 2016:
Still the same V6 as today, but twin turbo instead to help the sound. Then, one ERS for all the teams to keep costs down and help level the playing field.

Huh, this is actually not a bad idea. I think it's quite a fair one.


Quote from: LjudKeep the costs up, ey? Let's completely revamp engines in 2018 again!


Honda gets permission to fiddle with its engine during the season: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30860212


Proposal to bump engine power for 2017 by increasing fuel-flow limit and maximum fuel allowance: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117620

Hallelujah.  I was saying at the beginning of last season (or perhaps even before then) that both these limits were set needlessly low... nice of F1 to catch up.


Red Bull and Toro Rosso to use Renault engines in 2017 & '18: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/29/red-bull-commit-renault-2018/


So Sauber has elected to run this year's Ferrari engine for 2017, taking the hit in bhp, efficiency, etc (which shouldn't be as marked as with a 2015 vs. 2016 unit) so that they can get a head start on chassis/aero development: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126721


Quote from: ChrillWhich basically means they are aiming for 2018. Maximise the chassis for 2017 and then enter 2018 with a decent car and a decent engine. That should lead to decent points.

If it works out, I can see Sauber emulating their 2015 campaign where they scored decent points early on but dropped away over the season. Akin to what Toro Rosso has done this year.


I assume Sauber will save themselves a good few quid by running the old-spec engine next year, surely there must be a decent discount?

As for 2018... there is vague talk of them having Honda units.


Quote from: ChrillNot just vague talk. From what I've heard, there's already ink at the bottom of the paper from both Japan and Switzerland. The only hurdle is McLaren who are against it.


I can understand vetoing Red Bull through a desire to be the top-performing Honda team, but Sauber?  How far down the grid must we travel before finding someone McLaren feels they can comfortably beat....


Quote from: Chrill
Quote from: Penfold
I can understand vetoing Red Bull through a desire to be the top-performing Honda team, but Sauber?  How far down the grid must we travel before finding someone McLaren feels they can comfortably beat....
Well, let's hope Sauber builds a great car and Honda does wonders with their engine. Ericsson the 2018 world champion without a doubt.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 07, 2017, 04:03:03 AM
Ferrari hoping its 'double anchor' injection system will be ready to provide a boost later this season: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-evaluating-radical-double-anchor-injector-idea-879930/
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 30, 2017, 12:59:49 AM
F1 bods popping on down to Paris to discuss post 2021 engine regs. and Audi is said to be sending a representative: http://en.f1i.com/news/263462-audi-attend-next-f1-engine-meeting.html
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on March 30, 2017, 01:40:49 AM
I believe this isn't the first time they've sent a representative, so it might not mean much. They're there to see where F1 is going and then decide if such a direction would be of interest.

I'd quite like the following:
V8 hybrid (brakes only) engines with turbochargers.

This would remove the crazy fourth engine charging up from the exhaust fumes, which is what is causing problems. You'd have a proper V8 with turbo, and a lovely KERS system that drivers no not deploy manually but is instead operated automatically like today.

EDIT: Or better yet, give them a more open design spec and let them have a go at it. Maximum revs, maximum size (liters), optional turbo and hybrid systems.

Teams can choose a weaker but more reliable, ligher, and fuel efficient engine. Take a look at the 1995 season when we had V8, V10, and V12 cars all on the grid together. Ferrari actually won with an outdated V12 in 1995 (the last F1 race won by a car with a V12 engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Canadian_Grand_Prix)) Benetton and Williams won with V10 engines. Footwork, Simtek, Pacific, Forti, Minardi, and Sauber all used V8s. Sauber scored a podium, so that year saw 8, 10, and 12 cylinder engines on the podium at various points.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on March 31, 2017, 04:10:08 AM
I'm all for an open design spec.  Maybe keep a fuel load limit but let them decide no. of cylinders, capacity, whether to run turbos, KERS, heat recovery systems, etc, etc.  Have to adjust the approach to minimum weight requirement to allow for those choosing a simple, and therefore lighter, solution.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on April 03, 2017, 02:18:50 AM
Re: FIA engine jamboree.

The meeting resulted in broad agreement for the future evolution of Formula One power units, with all parties seemingly aligned in their focus on:

- A desire to maintain F1 as the pinnacle of motor sport technology, and as a laboratory for developing technology that is relevant to road cars
- Striving for future power units to be powerful, while becoming simpler and less costly to develop and produce
- Improving the sound of the power units
- A desire to allow drivers to drive harder at all times.


In other words... tweaked versions of the current units which can pump out a little more HP and some extra decibels, all at a slightly less eye-wateringly expensive cost.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on April 03, 2017, 07:50:29 AM
Basically let's make the current engine formula less refined and more raw. I like that. Also, I guess the era of fuel saving is over. Are we looking at a return to in-race refuelling for the next engine formula?
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on April 04, 2017, 01:06:26 AM
I like my overtaking to be done out on the track so I hope not.  Wouldn't object to them upping the annual engine (sorry, power unit) allocation, but that doesn't exactly sit well alongside reducing the cost of supply.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on April 04, 2017, 01:10:53 AM
They'll definitely keep it at 4 per season, if not even reducing it to 3. Or how about 1? Same engine all year. Sucks to damage it.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on April 04, 2017, 01:21:11 AM
I'd probably ramp it to an engine for every three races, but what was wrong with having a measly five new units a year?  Why is the FIA such a pain in the arse?
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on July 19, 2017, 02:50:06 AM
The 2021 grid will be exciting. Concorde Agreement has expired so the financial deals can be renegotiated. New engines are incoming. Cosworth is building one.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/cosworth-lining-up-for-f1-return-in-2021-932464/
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on July 19, 2017, 03:23:53 AM
Promising.  Like this comment "... we have some verbal agreements to partner with some existing and future teams."  Yes, sort out the revenue sharing and get that field back up to 24 or 26 cars.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on July 19, 2017, 06:46:33 AM
Well, Stefan the Serb is trying to join the grid again, this team in an Italian team.

I would love to see someone like ART GP, Prema Powerteam, or DAMS join the grid. They have the knowhow and the experience.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on September 05, 2017, 03:19:48 AM
Porsche confirms their interest in joining the 2021 grid, depending on what engine formula is used:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/porsche-confirms-formula-1-interest-for-2021-949446/
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on September 05, 2017, 04:22:51 AM
Engines will likely be broadly similar to current units - probably just a slightly less complex turbo hybrid V6 - but if that's enough to bring Porsche back into the game then fantastic.  Mind you, their last foray into the sport was disastrous, so hopefully we don't get a repeat of the Footwork debacle.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on September 26, 2017, 04:13:41 AM
Interesting snippet towards the end of following article where Joe Saward suggests that Red Bull, McLaren, and Cosworth might work together on a 2021 engine: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/09/25/red-bull-and-aston-martin/

Unfortunately no further details or explanation of who told him about such a possibility.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on October 26, 2017, 02:16:35 AM
2021 engine info. found lurking near the bottom of this Joe Saward article: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/notebook-from-a-weird-town/

"I am told that the engine rules for 2021 are now pretty much done and will be presented at the end of the month, prior to being dusted by the FIA in December.  It seems that there is broad agreement which will see the 1.6-litre V6 formula continuing, but with very significant changes to the hybrid and associated systems, many of which will be standardized in an effort to reduce the costs involved.  Teams will be allowed to buy and sell certain of their technologies, but the number of so-called listed parts will remain in place.  It is expected that the sport will try to expand to have 12 teams, 24 cars."
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on October 26, 2017, 03:54:07 AM
From what I've gathered, there is debate about two major issues before finalising the engine formula:

1) Removing MGU-H (the electric power generated from the turbo) or not
2) If so, how to harness the same power? Front wheel KERS system and 4 wheel drive F1 cars.

This makes the cars heavier yet. I'd rather have them remove the MGU-H, skip step 2, and just let cars rev higher plus permit increased fuel flow.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on October 27, 2017, 03:32:33 AM
I've wanted them to ease up on the fuel-flow limit & amount of fuel permitted per race since the beginning of time: not happened yet and no noises to suggest they are leaning that way.  More likely just to standardize those tricky bits to cut costs (as Joe Saward mentions), and I'd prefer that to making the cars even heavier with another KERS.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on October 31, 2017, 08:46:03 AM
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/formula-1-reveals-details-of-2021-engine-plan-973420/

To sum it up for you:

* 1.6 Litre V6 turbo hybrid
* 3000rpm higher for more noise
* MGU-H removed
* MGU-K improved, plus can be controlled directly by driver (kinda like the old KERS but awesomer)
* Single turbo with dimensional constraints and weight limits
* Standardised energy storage
* Can save up energy over several laps to deploy in a mega burst
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on November 01, 2017, 01:36:27 AM
They don't get near the current 15,000 rpm limit so unless restrictions on fuel-flow & max fuel per race are ditched I don't see the point of adding more revs; and if said restrictions are eased the calculation for teams is weight penalty of extra fuel versus higher power output - and add concerns about durability of engines to that.  So, erm, quite possible any extra revs would only be used in bursts: in qualifying & for attack modes in race.

Some of the manufacturers said to be unhappy at plans to remove the MGU-H as it's a technology they're keen to develop for road use... but it should make the cars louder.

More potent MGU-K sounds interesting and I'll be happy if drivers have this as a weapon in their arsenal rather than DRS - not least because the guy they're attacking also has an opportunity to deploy.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on November 01, 2017, 03:13:22 AM
Indeed. If you're only marginally faster, passing someone with powerful MGU-K and without DRS becomes very difficult. But doable, assuming aerodynamics are adjusted to fit the idea of running closely together.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on November 01, 2017, 03:35:25 AM
Some Twitter states this:

Engines should end up being about 10 kg lighter, fuel flow 120 kg/hour and 6-8 engines per driver and season.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on November 01, 2017, 06:10:35 AM
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-news-aston-martin-encouraged-engine-direction-973713/

And Aston Martin likey the sound of them plans.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on November 02, 2017, 02:16:21 AM
Whereas Mercedes & Renault don't sound too impressed: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41833948

Wolff's comments tie up with what 'GT Racer' said on the F1Fanatic site: "Been told that the new proposals hasn't gone down well with any of the manufacturer's partly due to the prospect of spec components but also because it appears that most of the manufacturer's in attendance are firmly against the removal of the MGU-H as they see it as one of the largest areas of development & performance improvement as well as a key area of high performance hybrid technology going forward.

"I also gather that some of those currently not in F1 who attended have questions about why they would bother entering F1 to showcase there brand & technology if many key components will be either standardized or unable to be developed. They also have a concern that any performance advantage they find will just end up been capped so that others can catch up.

"Appears the concern is that a lot of the discussions seemed to be about the show & entertainment rather than on performance, technology & sport."


For me, the single best part of the proposals is to allow 6 to 8 engines per car for a season.  In fact if they changed nothing else this move alone would make me happy.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on November 02, 2017, 03:30:53 AM
Quite frankly, F1 should be about show and entertainment. I'm mostly for that.

I don't mind if F1 becomes a single-engine manufacturer series, if all teams then develop their own aerodynamics. I don't really watch F1 to cheer for Mercedes, or before them Renault, Toyota, Jaguar, Honda, etc. I cheer for teams genuinely in F1 because it's F1, such as (at least in part) Ferrari, as well as Sauber, Force India and Williams.

Most of all, I cheer for drivers. That's why I was always fond of Barrichello, or was fond of Massa (PICK HIM FOR FIRST DRIVER!) up until perhaps the second half of this season. That's why I'm a big fan of Kamui Kobayashi, of Esteban Ocon, of Robert Kubica. Kinda like Nick Heidfeld too.

I don't care about manufacturers showcasing their tech, I care about great racing which is fun to watch for 90 minutes every second Sunday.

If we lose Mercedes and Renault, and we replace them with 3-4 teams from Formula 2/3, I would be totally ok with that.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on November 03, 2017, 02:24:06 AM
And Ferrari does their "threaten to quit" dance which they always do when something is about change in F1. Maybe they can move to Formula E  ;D
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on November 03, 2017, 03:25:14 AM
Quote from: Chrill on November 02, 2017, 03:30:53 AM
I don't care about manufacturers showcasing their tech, I care about great racing which is fun to watch for 90 minutes every second Sunday.

If we lose Mercedes and Renault, and we replace them with 3-4 teams from Formula 2/3, I would be totally ok with that.

As the guy I quoted in previous post said, not only are none of the current manufacturers happy with proposal to ditch the MGU-H & partly standardize components, but some of those not yet in F1 view the idea negatively.  So who will be stumping up the nine figure sum required to develop a new engine?  And why even drop the MGU-H?  It plays a significant role in the incredible efficiency of current engines (lighter fuel load), manufacturers seem keen on them as a tech to work on, and I'm sure even Honda will have a viable version by 2021.  Seems like a pointless battle for the FIA/Ross Brawn to pick - and one they will probably concede.

For me, F1 is as much about the fight between teams as that between drivers.  Cap their budgets, distribute moneys more evenly, and specify as few technical restrictions as possible - one of which will be skinny front wings!
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on November 03, 2017, 03:26:48 AM
Quote from: Chrill on November 03, 2017, 02:24:06 AM
And Ferrari does their "threaten to quit" dance which they always do when something is about change in F1. Maybe they can move to Formula E  ;D
What's that make it... bluff no. 17?
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on November 07, 2017, 01:32:51 AM
Ilmor and Cosworth sing praises of proposed engine simplification as it will lower the financial barrier to entry, but, and it's quite a big but, they also say that investment from an external backer would be required before they could contemplate making an F1 engine.  In other words they still need a car company to pump in some dosh, and as I said previously the noises out of the FIA engine chat was that some of the prospective candidates were less than keen on having key components either standardized or unable to be developed.  So all the FIA has to figure out is how to make the engines cheaper to develop and yet still technologically interesting to the car industry... sounds easy enough.

Ilmor/Cosworth story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41886707
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on November 07, 2017, 06:24:13 AM
At least it does sound like a Red Bull Aston Martin engine will be produced, if these rules do come into effect. I think the beverage boys have been pushing for these regulations quite strongly.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on November 08, 2017, 04:45:57 AM
They have been pushing with all their might.  For some odd reason, Red Bull is as keen as mustard for F1 to have far greater (or total) engine parity... perhaps some of the smaller teams should push for standardized chassis to help mitigate the 'unfair' advantage enjoyed by wealthy boys such as Red Bull.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on January 11, 2018, 06:11:55 AM
McLaren could build own engine for 2020 (but probably won't): https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2018/01/10/mclaren-keeping-open-mind-building-f1-engine-2020/

Guess much depends on how they fare with Renault units for these next couple of years.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on July 11, 2018, 02:18:59 AM
With it looking increasingly unlikely that Aston Martin & Porsche will bring their engineering skills to the F1 party, Toto Wolff suggests the FIA ditch plans to overhaul power units for 2021:   https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/10/no-porsche-no-new-f1-engines-fia-urged-to-keep-mgu-h/

I don't think they should be scrapping the MGU-H anyway, so hopefully the bigwigs heed Toto's advice.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on October 16, 2018, 05:18:15 AM
Renault concerned at being outspent by Honda: https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/16/honda-development-accelerates-as-renault-fear-theyre-being-out-spent/

I love this comment from Abiteboul: "We have a plan* and we are executing that plan.  It's not just about arms race.  We have all the aspects of the package to develop.  No one is providing anything to us, either in the power train or on the chassis, so it has to be step by step. We are very confident in our upgrade for next year.  We want to play the long term game."

Now you see, I'd suggest to him that F1 development is an arms race, and it's one that Renault is losing.  I might also mention that we are already past the point where playing the 'long term game' should be paying dividends.

*I wish he were a fan of Blackadder and had said that "we have a cunning plan".  Would've given me a chuckle.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on February 16, 2021, 02:52:50 AM
Not posted on this thread in a while....

Red Bull considering developing its own engines for when new rules land in '25: https://www.racefans.net/2021/02/16/red-bull-preparing-to-develop-their-own-power-units-for-new-2025-f1-rules/
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on February 16, 2021, 03:55:23 AM
With the infrastructure they are setting up, I don't see why Red Bull would not have a go at building a smallish road car. Think Smart car (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/2016_Smart_Fortwo_Passion_Automatic_1.0_Front.jpg/1280px-2016_Smart_Fortwo_Passion_Automatic_1.0_Front.jpg) meets X Games (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Brian_Deegan_jumping_at_X_Games_17_in_Los_Angeles.jpg/1280px-Brian_Deegan_jumping_at_X_Games_17_in_Los_Angeles.jpg), you know?
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on February 16, 2021, 05:00:08 AM
Or perhaps a massively expensive supercar?
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on February 16, 2021, 05:58:10 AM
They already did that.

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/aston_martin_valkyrie_2_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on February 16, 2021, 06:35:29 AM
Oh yeah, in conjunction with Aston Martin.  Forgot about that.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on February 16, 2021, 07:32:15 AM
Did you know, then, that Aston Martin already built a smart car?

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/v8-cygnet-2018-517.jpg)
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on February 16, 2021, 08:03:40 AM
I remember them doing that.  Believe it was heavily motivated by a desire to reduce average CO2 emissions across the brand.  Something of an understatement to say that it did not sell well....
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on February 16, 2021, 08:10:43 AM
Yes. I think these days the car manufacturers sort of group together. So Tesla can "sell" their emission margins to say Volkswagen to cover up the dieselgate, so that together the two brands are under limit.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on February 19, 2021, 03:00:57 AM
Sounds right, carbon trading is quite the business these days.

Some general comments by Honda chap about upgrades to this year's engine: https://www.racefans.net/2021/02/19/honda-reveals-changes-to-power-unit-for-final-season-in-f1/

We can but hope they've narrowed the deficit to the Mercedes units.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Chrill on February 19, 2021, 06:56:42 AM
Well, Mercedes keep echoing the famous "oops, engine trouble" sounds they make every year. Even if the 2021 engines are troublesome, they could run the 2020 configuration without suffering too much I'd think. ;D

We'll see what Ferrari achieve with their new engine, they need to step it up a lot.
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on February 19, 2021, 08:39:24 AM
That they do. I'm torn between wanting people to challenge Mercedes and my dislike of the Ferrari F1 team....

No doubt Toto will come out with his customary spiel about how tough this year is going to be for Mercedes - wouldn't be the same without it!
Title: Re: Future Sounds of F1
Post by: Penfold on April 23, 2021, 06:19:55 AM
Good piece of recruitment by Red Bull Powertrains: https://www.racefans.net/2021/04/23/red-bull-powertrains-hires-mercedes-head-of-engineering-to-work-on-f1-power-unit/