As I mentioned elsewhere, Ross Brawn is to present his 2021 vision to team managers this morning - and who knows, perhaps some details will even be released for us plebs. Or perhaps they won't be. What we do get is a peek at two ideas to help bump the number of overtakes for next year.
Proposal 1: Simplify the front wing by removing certain elements that are specifically designed to control the airflow around the front wheels.
Proposal 2: Increase size of rear wing flap to boost effect of DRS.
Now, one of these proposals was put forward by an aerodynamicist who works under Ross Brawn, and one was suggested by the FIA. Ahh, but which one is which... click the following link to read full details and have the mystery revealed: http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/135189?_ga=2.80407315.566551016.1522877195-462676180.1476909048
Details have been published: https://www.racefans.net/2018/04/06/liberty-medias-2021-proposal-includes-cost-cap-and-prize-money-changes/
Budget cap! :)
Now, this has been suggested before. That almost created the "Grand Prix World Championship" or whatever they called it ten years ago.
Yeah, but can you imagine anyone besides Ferrari, Red Bull, and Mercedes joining such a set-up? Perhaps they could each run eight cars under four different team names... then just need to find some tracks not under contract with F1, some support races not affiliated with the FIA, a whole bunch of fans willing to pay for the experience, and new sponsors to replace those who prefer to stick with F1. And right at the death Red Bull guys look round and think, you know what, without Ferrari & Mercedes in the paddock this F1 business will be a piece of piss, let's stay.
Anyway... I'm sure the $150 million cap will be bumped higher, probably ending up closer to $250 million - and that won't have to include driver salaries.
This was the leaked 2010 calendar for the breakaway series:
Round Grand Prix Circuit Date Last Formula One date
(if not a 2009 F1 venue)
1 Argentine Grand Prix Argentina Aut?dromo Oscar Alfredo G?lvez, Buenos Aires 3 March
2 Mexican Grand Prix Mexico Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, Mexico City 21 March
3 Spanish Grand Prix Spain Circuito Permanente de Jerez, Jerez 11 April
4 Portuguese Grand Prix Portugal Algarve International Circuit, Portim?o 25 April
5 San Marino Grand Prix San Marino Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari, Imola 2 May
6 Monaco Grand Prix Monaco Circuit de Monaco, Monte Carlo 23 May
7 Canadian Grand Prix Canada Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal 6 June
8 US Grand Prix United States Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Indianapolis 13 June
9 British Grand Prix United Kingdom Silverstone Circuit, Silverstone 1 July
10 French Grand Prix France Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours, Magny-Cours 25 July
11 German Grand Prix Germany EuroSpeedway Lausitz, Klettwitz 15 August
12 Finnish Grand Prix Finland Helsinki Thunder, Helsinki 29 August
13 Italian Grand Prix Italy Autodromo Nazionale Monza, Monza 12 September
14 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix United Arab Emirates Yas Marina Circuit, Abu Dhabi 26 September
15 Singapore Grand Prix Singapore Marina Bay Street Circuit, Singapore 10 October
16 Japanese Grand Prix Japan Suzuka Circuit, Suzuka 24 October
17 Australian Grand Prix Australia Adelaide Street Circuit, Adelaide OR Surfers Paradise Street Circuit, Surfers Paradise 8 November
I mean, I'd be up for something akin to this. Some exciting tracks here, such as visiting Finland and Imola.
EDIT: Worth noting is that this list had Mexico on it years before F1 really got there. Neat stuff.
Seven of those are current F1 venues and I'll be amazed if their contracts don't have a no-competition clause. Perhaps they didn't contain such a caveat in 2010, I don't know if that proposed calendar was concrete or so much wishful thinking, but I'll be surprised if the threat of a breakaway didn't spur Bernie to insert some binding restrictions as licences were renewed.
Anyway, proposed distribution of F1's riches from 2021 onwards: https://www.racefans.net/2018/04/11/revealed-the-winners-and-losers-under-libertys-2021-f1-prize-money-plan/
That looks a whole lot of reasonable. In other words, it won't happen.
Fairer distribution of prize money - not an easy one for the big three to criticize. Now restricting what they're allowed to spend, well I'm sure that's going to be one hell of a fight.
Claire Williams warns company will shut up shop without a budget cap: https://www.racefans.net/2018/04/18/williams-close-f1-budget-cap/
Well, even if there is no budget cap they need Sirotkin and Stroll to cope financially. They're clearly doing something wrong. Just look at Haas or Force India. Those teams work just fine.
I've said before that Force India is clearly getting more bang for its buck than Williams, though still not enough revenue to avoid multi-million Pound losses - that's where a wealthy owner comes in handy! As for Haas, leaving aside the cosy arrangement with Ferrari which must help on the cost front, they're not run on quite the shoestring budget widely assumed. Extracts from a piece in Forbes now follow:
"A $150 million budget cap is currently being considered and Haas Formula, the British company which runs the team, would fall comfortably within it. Its latest financial statements reveal that in 2016 costs came to $116.8 million and the company had just 57 staff.
Haas has also benefited from economies of scale by drawing on the North Carolina design department of its sister outfit, the championship-winning Stewart-Haas NASCAR team. The facilities there include a $50 million windtunnel as well as a 125,000sq ft shop. The icing on the cake is that the machine tools used to build F1 cars are made by Haas Automation, the company which made Haas his estimated $740m fortune.
It isn't possible to confirm how much is spent on F1 by HAAS Formula LLC, the team's North Carolina parent company, as it doesn't release its financial statements. However, it is understood that including the workforce there brings the overall total to around 200."
So a somewhat bigger (more expensive) operation than the headline figure suggests. That said, Williams & Sauber are surely the worst performers given their annual spend (was probably McLaren last year).
Quote from: Penfold on April 19, 2018, 02:35:18 AMThat said, Williams & Sauber are surely the worst performers given their annual spend (was probably McLaren last year).
Hey, Sauber has already scored points this year. Williams hasn't even been remotely close! :P
True, although both Williams qualified and finished ahead of both Saubers in China - and they have Stroll & Sirotkin doing the driving!
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/01/f1-approves-car-changes-to-increase-overtaking-in-2019/
So this happened. Changes
approved for next season.
QuoteSimpler front wings and brake ducts are among the changes which were approved in a vote yesterday. Rear wings will also be made wider and deeper, increasing the power of drag reduction systems.
I dislike the second idea, but the first is neat. It should allow cars to follow each other more closely.
Wow, they actually agreed to do something that might help drivers follow each other... and then for balance they also agreed to enlarge the rear wings & so strengthen the DRS effect. If they shorten the DRS zones accordingly then fine, at least the speed boost won't get any more ridiculous, otherwise we're just going to be treated to a barrage of tedious motorway passes.
Quote from: Penfold on May 01, 2018, 02:31:36 AM
Wow, they actually agreed to do something that might help drivers follow each other... and then for balance they also agreed to enlarge the rear wings & so strengthen the DRS effect. If they shorten the DRS zones accordingly then fine, at least the speed boost won't get any more ridiculous, otherwise we're just going to be treated to a barrage of tedious motorway passes.
With what the rear wings looking over-dimensioned already, I wonder just how much wider they will get. I'd be all for removing DRS on circuits that don't need it. The Baku straight could do without one.
Especially as larger rear wings should aid slipstreaming. Just a shame it won't happen.
Next year's DRS will be 25 - 30% more powerful (great!), making it a 'useful' tool on shorter straights than at present: https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/10/enhanced-drs-will-be-available-more-often-in-2019/
Charlie Whiting's view of DRS: "What we attempt to do is look at how effective the DRS is at each circuit and then we try to tune it in order that you have to be within four-tenths [of a second] of the car in front to make it work. Four-tenths is quite a difficult gap to get to. If you can get that and you?ve got the length of straight, you should be alongside by the time you get to the braking point."
Most DRS passes I see have the overtaker nicely ahead before they hit the braking zone, but then I've often felt that Charlie and the other rulemakers don't actually watch F1.
Appears F1 will be moving to 18-inch wheels in 2021: https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/20/formula-1-18-inch-wheels-2021/
No explanation as to why front wheels are being made narrower - cut from 305 mm to 270 mm - so I can only guess that it's part of the grand plan to minimise the effect of dirty air.
Sounds logical. The dirty air thing. Also, 18 inch rims make perfect sense when looking at modern road cars.
Had to change at some point, makes sense to lump it in with the aero overhaul.
They have also apparently said that tire warmers will be banned, but that has been said many times before. The experts over on Reddit seem to think that it will be the end of the world because everyone will crash as soon as they put steering input. I know F1 cars have more downforce than anyone else, but the vast majority of racing series do not use tire warmers.
I don't see why tyre warmers need to be banned. Is it cost saving? I mean, that can't save much. Is it to insert a bit of "gamble" because drivers have to run with cold tyres for a little while after a pit stop? Add "spice" and "excitement"? Boo.
A couple of F1 engineers who see ditching blankets as a challenge but not an insurmountable one: https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/20/engineers-believe-f1-can-ban-tyre-warmers-without-risking-safety/
Plus one interesting commect from a random guy off the internet: "At the moment, a lot of a F1 car's suspension is in the tyre. The volume of a tyre is large so it's really very pressure (and thus temperature) sensitive. Moving to bigger rims means shallower tyres without the volume and the big side-walls. The 'suspension' elements will be part of the car, decoupling temperature from ride quality to some extent. This should make it simpler to design tyres with a broader working temperature range."
Wider front wings from next year means more knocks and so the plan is to strengthen those hunks of carbon fibre: https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/24/wider-2019-front-wings-will-make-risk-of-damage-even-worse/
Another plan would be to not crash.
You try and sell that idea to Grosjean....
I need not. He won't be around for next season!
Stronger front wings also means they are more likely to cause punctures. Seems like a net neutral at best. And I cannot claim to be an aerodynamicist, but making the wings wider seems like it would partially offset the gain they were trying to achieve in terms of decreasing aero wash.
I'm sure it will. We need far less downforce from the front wings so leaving the width as is would've been better, or in an ideal world make them narrower still and/or even more simplified than planned. I'd also love to see the cars shrink in length and weight at the same time as slashing over-body aero, though I suspect the hefty power units likely make the first half of that wish impossible.
First pics of the 2019-spec wings: https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/31/first-picture-new-front-wings-for-2019-season-appear-in-hungaroring-test/
Look fine to me. Less fussy than the current offerings.
I agree. I was afraid we would go back to those bonkers front wings of yesteryear (that is, around 2010ish), but these look cleaner. I'd still much prefer a smaller front wing (in length) with a limit of perhaps only 1 or 2 upper elements instead of the ridiculously intricate designs we have today.
These wings are sufficiently advanced in my eyes.
(https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/championship/teams/McLaren/Year_by_Year/_jcr_content/featureContent/manual_gallery_10/image1.img.1024.medium.jpg/1421668398829.jpg)
Agreed, something along those lines would suit me as well.
Found this technical analysis of the whole 'dirty air' issue by Craig Scarborough. It's on the long side but well worth a read to understand what the hell is going on and where F1 went disastrously wrong with the 2017 rule changes: https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-why-no-overtaking-and-are-bigger-auZby7jDQhuGAz6N9TEP-g?iid=Vde1lxdPRYCGtSUbhXyipw
And for those of us with little to no patience (remember, I am succinct), what is Mr. Scarborough saying?
That the 2017 changes have well and truly screwed us (aerodynamically speaking) by going against what the Overtaking Working Group came up with in 2008. Tell you what, tomorrow morn I'll pick out the most salient/interesting sections for you to peruse - no time/can't be bothered to do it now.
Okay, front wing stufff first: Their purpose has shifted from simply matching downforce produced at the rear to one of controlling airflow, and in particular pushing the wake created by front tyres away from the car. Left unmolested this wake gets sucked back in around the coke bottle area and upsets airflow to the rear wing & diffuser; so not only does a following car lose downforce off the front wing, it also has reduced control over its own tyre wake and so suffers rear aero losses. This is why those endplates have been banned.
Issues with 2017 rule changes: The 2008 Overtaking Working Group (OWG) study found that cars produce less 'dirty air' for someone following if they have a smaller diffuser, higher & narrower rear wing, and fewer aero devices strewn across the car. For 2017 we got: larger diffusers, low & wide rear wings, more aero devices popping up, and also kept the hugely complex front wings. Oops.
Unintended consequences: Braking. F1 cars getting heavier should've meant that braking becomes trickier & takes longer, but with more downforce & drag not only is there a smaller difference between top speed and cornering speed, but drivers can actually brake harder because downforce plays such a crucial role in stopping a car from high speed. The upshot is that braking distance has been reduced - by six car lengths into turn 1 in Barcelona - which is not great news for overtaking.
His solution (not quite in full): "I'd propose a rule set that seeks to reduce the wake creating elements, reduce the sensitive devices needed to support hard worked wings and diffuser, matched to stickier tyres that while durable have a finite life as they wear and lastly a reduction in braking torque. Primarily this will see larger front/rear wings and diffuser underbody. It's believed that downforce produced by the underbody is less sensitive to following in the wake of another car, so the car should feature longer ground effect tunnels under the floor. While the front and rear wings are longer and a little wider, but shallower than the current wings.
"The increase in these areas is countered by reducing their complexity, with the number of elements and curvature. With the wings and tunnels being much longer, but just 2-3 elements on the front wings and a shallow maximum angle of attack on both the wings and underbody. In this format, we get the downforce, but not the sensitivity and extra drag to slow top speeds.
"Throughout the car simpler bodywork, to rid the cars of the sharp multiple aerodynamic edges. This simplification needs to be added to the wings, but there needs to be some small allowance at the rear wing tip and diffuser outlet to prevent strong tip vortices forming. It's these that create the upwash that wrecks the following car's performance. Also, a simple turning vane added behind the front tyre. Like those used in the nineties, this will manage the front tyre wake, allowing more efficient rear wings as they'll run in clean air."
He then ponders active aero, making brakes less powerful, and using a push-to-pass system.
That's about as succinct as I could make it. ;)
Very nice summary!
Would a regulation be possible wherein you define how dirty air is allowed to get behind your car? As in, measure it in a wind tunnel 3 metres behind your car. If it is XX dirty (I don't know the unit for dirty air :P ) then your car is not permitted to race.
I suppose you could measure the air pressure at the point where a trailing car's front wing would be. Set a minimum permitted level (as a percentage of atmospheric pressure?) at wing height a certain distance behind a car's rear end - or perhaps not one specific distance but in a range, so for example, between 3 and 5 metres back the average pressure must be at least X percent of that experienced by the leading car's front wing. Would be a fascinating question to throw at an F1 aerodynamicist.
That would easily cut out any loopholes, basically saying "yeah, maximise your own performance but don't do it in a way that is detrimental to others". Would open up a lot of possible venues to create efficient downforce that does not destroy competition. As it stands today, I assume teams happily fit parts to their car that does not make them faster but makes them harder to follow.
I sure as hell would if it didn't cost me any speed! Though I suspect that as the cars have such complicated aero these days the air is already so disturbed so as to not need any further prodding.
Wonder when we'll hear from Ross Brawn's working group on plans for 2021 regs? I assume teams are going to want at least a full year to get cracking on new designs, so presumably no later than the tail end of 2019. Perhaps sooner than that if there are going to be negotiations with the teams - or will it be presented as a fait accompli?
Since they have enough time to spare, and a new Concorde Agreement needed, I believe 2021 is rather open. I hope Ross Brawn is willing to upset the teams. Let's face it, without the top 3 teams F1 would be way more exciting. Don't be afraid to level the playing field. Mercedes may leave, Red Bull may leave, Ferrari may leave. Let them, then.
High-degradation tyres on the cards for 2020: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/f1-planning-return-2011-style-high-tyre-degradation/
Also going to have only four different (dry) compounds being produced from 2020 - with three available at each race same as now.
'Soft' version of a budget cap to be implemented next year: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/22/f1-intends-introduce-soft-budget-cap-2019/
No idea what a 'soft' budget cap entails, but by 2021 it will have matured into the full blown variety.
Don't fear the (downforce) reaper, says Ross Brawn: https://racer.com/2018/09/19/f1-shouldnt-fear-reduced-downforce-brawn/
Most interesting paragraph (for those with limited time/attention spans): "The current cars lose up to 50% of aerodynamic performance behind another car, while the 2021 concepts are targeting a reduction of that number to just 20%. Brawn says the changes next year will allow F1 to gauge how accurate those estimates are and understand more about future tweaks."
20%? Well, losing 20% is still bad but couple that with a MASSIVE SEXY DRS and we're all set for easy overtakes.
We're meant to be dropping DRS when these new cars come in, but as yet no cast-iron guarantee that this will be the case.
Brawn's 'Project 2021' seems to still be on track. So that's two more years of this aero nightmare to endure before we awake in the promised land: http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/141394
Single supplier of gearboxes from 2021: https://www.racefans.net/2019/02/19/fia-planning-standard-gearbox-for-f1-in-2021/
They should scrap any gearbox failure penalties if this comes to pass.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean the bids must be in less than one month away. That's a tight deadline for coming to such a decision. Feels naive.
The last thing one would expect from the FIA....
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/kevin-magnussen-new-haas-aero-rules/4344314/
K-Mag says:
"I followed a car today and you know it really really feels a lot better than last year" and "I felt a big difference. You know, it felt completely different. I could actually follow. I was a lot faster than the guy I was following and I passed him..."
Which is good to hear. Shame they've simultaneously made DRS even more potent: https://www.racefans.net/2019/02/27/drs-effect-is-much-more-powerful-now-grosjean/
Quote from: Penfold on March 01, 2019, 05:38:33 AM
Which is good to hear. Shame they've simultaneously made DRS even more potent: https://www.racefans.net/2019/02/27/drs-effect-is-much-more-powerful-now-grosjean/
YAY! DRS, or as I'd like to call it "Dream Racing Scenario".
Perez and Bottas both agree that it is easier to follow. Ricciardo remains uncertain and says "I think it will be a little bit better, but I am not going to say it is going to be a massive difference".
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/incredible-job-overtaking-changes-perez/4345373/
And Stroll says it was closer than he is used to, the aerodynamics helped make the midfield race a race.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.stroll-revels-in-'proper-wheel-to-wheel-racing'-of-australia-midfield-fight.2N0bDAt1D7dgxnilKCeJs2.html?fbclid=IwAR2bJhD2tFbPV_UaJPuWwapOM4G1EQeIvsODHmE0eJF-0llJj13RtpzGXI4
Fortunately, at most other tracks DRS will save us from the torture of watching cars following each other closely for multiple laps as they struggle to get a pass done.
Lovely. I cannot wait for that!
Here be a comprehensive technical analysis of the 2021 concept car: https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/02/how-will-f1-revolutionise-the-racing-in-2021-its-new-concept-car-analysed/
Looks promising.
Judging from the Bahrain GP, the new front wings do produce better racing. Or we were just very lucky. 2021 could be what F1 needs. Does look promising.
Kimi the latest to give the thumbs up to this year's changes:
"I don't know if I overtook anybody in the new DRS, but I think the cars for sure lets you get more closer undisturbed. I think exits are still tricky when you're really close, but I think the cars are more easy to follow now, getting closer."
New aero for 2021 should be such a leap forward (or backwards to simpler times!) that DRS can finally be consigned to the dustbin of history. Blimey, to think that cars might soon(ish) be able to follow each other through the twisty bits like they did back in the late-eighties and early-nineties. Tres exciting.
Is it actually confirmed that F1 will do away with DRS for 2021? I fear it may remain!
It's not yet confirmed, but the 2021 concept on that racefans link displayed a glorious absence of DRS, and in fact the rear wing was quite a novel design which wouldn't be compatible with anything like the current system. Of course, the aforementioned concept is still just that, and so remains open to further revision - hopefully adding DRS isn't part of it!
"Better safe than sorry" feels like a philosophy Liberty could adopt.
Why hire a technical expert like Brawn to oversee a solution to F1's ills and then destroy his work by imposing something as simplistic (and loathed) as DRS? I mean, they could do it, but you've got to assume they're not that stupid.
F1's 2021 floors as conceived by Brawn's boffins: https://www.racefans.net/2019/07/17/return-of-ground-effect-in-2021-to-make-massive-difference-to-overtaking/
I'm just glad they finally listened to me about re-introducing ground effects.
Yes, you finally came through. There will probably be some disgruntled team managers and aerodynamic chiefs, because these regulations further limit what a car designer is able to do. Newey has already got bored of F1 once, will a 2021 car be his last? Why stick around for 2022 when you cannot achieve much?
I'd rather have a tight championship with limited ability to develop the cars and "narrow" regulations than what we have today, but that isn't F1. A low budget cap, and more freedom in car development, could also lead to more variety among cars. Those who find a really clever solution know not all teams, if any, can afford copying it.
The 2021 grid could also bring us a new team in the form of Panthera!
https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/23/new-f1-team-panthera-seeking-to-join-grid-in-2021/
So it's currently called Panthera Team Asia F1. Obviously a very catchy moniker, but does it also point towards them taking Honda engines? Or, given that the team's founders are French, will they be a second customer for Renault - perhaps one that the works team could actually beat! Whichever it might be, let's just hope the F1 bigwigs sort out the new rules quickly enough for these Panther guys to make the 2021 season.
Pantera?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkFqg5wAuFk
Yes, but will they be able to thrash the opposition.
I mean, Pantera is more groove metal than thrash. So, will they be able to get groovy is the question.
A fair point. Well if the Pantera boys do make F1, I hope it doesn't take them long to get into the groove of things.
I'm pleased to report that refuelling will not be making a comeback in '21; the FIA has also said it won't be forcing teams to make at least two tyre changes in a race (I didn't know that one was even on the cards!): https://www.racefans.net/2019/09/12/plans-for-refuelling-and-two-mandatory-pit-stops-dropped-by-strategy-group/
I am very encouraged to hear they are not bringing back refuelling. It really did not do much to spice up the action when we had it last, it was just an extra risk for mechanics near the car.
Do you remember in 2005 when we did have refuelling, but no tyre changes? That was a weird season.
I do now you bring it up, until then I'd successfully blanked that little detail from my mind. Christ, the FIA really shouldn't be allowed near F1's rule book without adult supervision.
Elimination style qualifying, then. What was that, as recently as 2016? It was removed after two races, when they brought back the Q3 setup which quite frankly we all like.
Exactly. Whenever there's a story on some new proposal to mess around with qualifying, so pretty much once a year, what you get is comment after comment from fans pleading with them to leave it alone. Do they listen? Do they heck....
Qualifying races on Saturday is one option now under consideration: https://www.racefans.net/2019/09/13/f1-teams-yet-to-agree-on-plan-to-test-saturday-races-in-2020/
Good grief.
I wouldn't mind them trialling it, as long as they do so and then let fans vote after 2-3 rounds. Just because something works doesn't mean it cannot be improved, right? Let's run it for 3 weekends near the end of 2020, and let us fans vote to see whether we prefer the 3-part qualifying or the new format. They have the platform for it, https://www.f1fanvoice.com/
It'd be a tiny, tiny minority of fans that would bother to vote. I mean, the result would probably be against any change because it's the F1 diehards that are likely to be doing the voting, but I'm not sure having a core of fans dictate F1's future will appeal to the FIA. That's not to say that these diehards wouldn't do a better job than the idiots in charge - for God's sake give us a vote on how many engines are allowed each year - but I can't imagine the FIA accepting any vote as binding unless it tallies with their own opinion.
If the Saturday format is altered perhaps they could have a pre-qualifying for the qualifying races; or maybe have pre-pre-qualifying to set the grid for a pre-qualifying race which determines the starting order of the final qualifying race.
This has to be one for the 'I'll believe it when I see it' file, but we now have a second outfit champing at the bit to join F1's revamped 2021 circus: https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/03/second-potential-new-f1-team-for-2021-emerges-naming-wehrlein-as-potential-driver/
Good if it happens, but certainly not holding my breath on either them or Panthera making the grid.
F1's crazy plan for reverse-order qualifying races is not quite dead but it is teetering on the edge after failing to secure the teams' unanimous support: https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/16/qualifying-races-plan-fails-to-gain-full-support-of-teams/
For me, the ability of a driver to pull everything out of a car over a single lap is an integral part of the racing weekend, I don't get the interest in watching a race on Sunday with a fake grid resulting from a qualifying race which itself has an artificial starting order. Then there's the inherent risk in putting all the slowest cars & drivers at the front of a grid - and the FIA thinks Spa should be one of the three test races!
Personally, I think single-car, single-lap qualifying like we had in the early/mid-2000s makes for the best races. You have to get your one lap right, any mistake will cost you. It's fair and naturally results in some different grids, unlike today's qualifying where you get multiple laps. That's fair but predictable.
The negatives are that it's not as exciting to watch and some people think it can lead to unfair track condition differences. On the first issue, that's true, but I think making qualifying a "show" often makes the race worse, but it's the race that matters. But the sport and networks want big ratings for everything. On the second issue, this can be true, although it's rare, but if you just run the qualifying order by points position, then the chances that you'll have significantly different track conditions than the people you're actually racing are exceptionally slim.
Quote from: Matt on October 17, 2019, 09:28:41 AM... but if you just run the qualifying order by points position, then the chances that you'll have significantly different track conditions than the people you're actually racing are exceptionally slim.
Yep. Too bad they only ever ran first qualifying in Championship order and then used the times from that session to determine Q2 running - with the slowest being sent out first. I was trying to remember the intervals at which they sent out each car... was it every so many minutes, or was it when the previous car had completed its timed lap?
Good news for people who love bad news: The FIA is considering placing a limit on the number of brake discs/pads that a driver can use in a season, with grid penalties for exceeding the limit: https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/31/f1-drivers-could-get-grid-penalties-for-brake-changes-in-2021/
I'd say that is a silly move by FIA, but not a very big one in the grand scheme of things. Let's focus on the new cars!
They'll look OK (when you remove the over-the-top gloss on the promo images), there is room for variation in the rules that they published, and most importantly they should remove the need for DRS due to the ability of driving close behind another car!
https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/31/analysis-whats-new-in-the-2021-f1-regulations/
Also, cars should be able to look a bit differently since they have opened up some areas to be interpreted differently:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/31/fia-new-2021-f1-rules-wont-force-all-cars-to-look-the-same/
All in all, I'm very positive to the 2021 regulations, but not everyone is:
DONT MAKE EM SLOW, says Vettel: https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/31/f1-shouldnt-go-back-to-slow-cars-says-vettel/
DONT CARE ABOUT SLOW IF THE RACING IS GOOD, says Kimi and Ricciardo: https://www.racefans.net/2019/11/01/raikkonen-if-the-racing-is-better-no-one-would-care-if-were-10-seconds-slower/
FIA estimates a 3-second loss with the new cars over an average lap, but with the development race raging I think we won't lose that much. Maybe 1-1.5 seconds per lap for 2021, which will mostly be made back up by 2022.
So long as the dirty air issue is resolved I don't much care about their appearance - or about losing a few seconds of ultimate pace - but as it happens the basic design looks just fine to me. This link has pics of the wind tunnel model, so none of that over-the-top promo gloss to peer through: https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/31/f1-presents-its-new-car-for-the-2021-season/
The problem is that the fast lap times are directly related to not being very raceable. The shorter the braking zone, the harder it is to get alongside, and the faster the corner speed, the harder it is to race side-by-side.
With two years for the teams to ruin the FIA's plans of less reliance on body aero, I think the predicted time difference needed to be bigger if they expect this to work at all.
I also mostly disagree with Vettel. The cars were still the fastest in the world, which is what makes them F1 cars. The speed difference isn't particularly visible with the newer cars anyway. I don't believe anyone who says they can visibly see the difference without a direct side-by-side comparison, it's a placebo effect because you already know they're faster.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-reduce-spending-future-2021/4602421/
Honda is flirting with leaving F1 after 2020 if the costs are too high for engine development. Red Bull's 3 wins this year will surely push Honda closer to remaining, but the cost is the main issue.
No great changes for engines post 2020 (aside from restrictions on R&D) so hopefully they'll stick around for a bit longer yet.
Well, they're sticking around for 2021 anyway: https://www.racefans.net/2019/11/27/red-bull-confirm-new-honda-deal-for-2021/
Mercedes may not, though. German rumours reaching Sweden claim Wolff was away from Brazil for attending a Daimler meeting. The new Daimler CEO, one Ola Källenius (who replaced the famous moustache man Dieter Zetsche) is not too keen on F1. Mister Källenius is more into electric, and is reportedly pushing for Mercedes to leave the sport. They will remain an engine manufacturer, but they will not operate a team.
We'll see if Mercedes remain. If not, what will Lewis do?
He probably wouldn't stay with whoever bought and rebranded the Merc F1 team. That leaves retirement, pairing up with either Max at Red Bull or with Leclerc at Ferrari (I can't see them leaving their respective teams by '21), or taking his chances on an upper-midfield outfit such as McLaren.
I might have to add one year to this thread's title; the FIA, Liberty, and teams will today discuss whether to delay implementing the 2021 regulations for a year: https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/19/f1-to-discuss-postponing-new-2021-cars/
My understanding is that it has been approved. So, 2022 Regulatory Overhaul (a.k.a. Project Death to Dirty Air/DRS-free Overtaking)
Yep, new regs delayed until '22, a shame but was the only decision that made sense; happy to see the budget cap still kicks in next year: https://www.racefans.net/2020/03/19/unanimous-agreement-to-postpone-new-f1-cars-for-2021-but-not-budget-cap/
It just occurred to me that unless the current regs get tweaked ahead of next year, Merc's DAS will be legal and presumably widely adopted, meaning there would suddenly be much logic in teams developing such a system post haste.
... and the current regs have indeed been tweaked ahead of next year: https://www.racefans.net/2020/04/01/why-the-fia-has-re-banned-mercedes-das-for-2021/
2021 budget cap reduced by $30 million to a mere $145 million (excluding driver & mgmt. salaries, marketing costs, hospitality, ice creams...) https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/04/formula-1-will-cut-2021-budget-cap-to-145-million-brawn/
I'm expecting Alfa & Alpha to spend the full whack in the future as development costs get shunted around by their parents.
$145 million is still a significant decrease for the big spenders, and it's just a step 1. I'll be the naïve one, but I think that cap could decrease further in the coming years (Assuming F1 makes it out of the current crisis at all).
It's a good level for a cap, and in combination with the promised fairer distribution of prize money, it puts F1 on a far more sensible & sustainable path. My main issue now is that I've always (well, for quite a few years anyway) wanted a budget cap to be paired with greater technical freedom, but it seems Brawn & Co. are determined go the other way on that front.
I agree that technical and aerodynamical improvements are essential to F1, but at the same time a F2-style series would interest me. The best mechanics and drivers would excel, rather than the deepest pockets, the best wind tunnels, and the smartest computer systems.
Then again, that's what IndyCar is for. F1 needs the development aspect.
I'd love a tighter cap and greater freedom, indeed, but we'll see. The venturi tunnels coming for 2022, whilst limited in the regulations, offer a brand new avenue of development.
Quote from: Chrill on May 05, 2020, 03:25:13 AM
$145 million is still a significant decrease for the big spenders, and it's just a step 1. I'll be the naïve one, but I think that cap could decrease further in the coming years (Assuming F1 makes it out of the current crisis at all).
Your assumption is correct: https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/06/f1-budget-cap-to-fall-again-in-2022-and-2023/
Relatively modest reductions of $5 million in 2022 and '23, but then we are starting from a significantly lower base than was envisioned just a few short (long) months ago.
Cars to just keep getting fatter: https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/27/f1s-minimum-car-weight-to-rise-again-in-2021-and-2022/
Long gone are the days of 500 kg motors....
Success punishment proposed: https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/27/f1s-aero-handicap-rules-will-get-much-tougher-in-second-year/
That's very much not in line with F1, the whole "lower placed teams can do more". But I kinda like it. It's gimmicky like DRS, but instead of fake overtakes it evens out the playing field between very skilled and less skilled technicians, aerodynamicists, etc.
All in all, I'm a bit torn. But if smaller teams can afford more development compared to the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes, and Red Bull, it could be good.
... but of course if a smaller team does a cracking job on limited resources one year, they themselves will then be restricted for the following season.
Indeed. This only really works as long as there is a lot of carryover from season to season. For every new set of aerodynamic regulations, they would have to reset the penalties.
I'm definitely more keen on continuing to lower the budget cap, or indeed to include more costs within it.
I wish they'd just left it at the reduced budget cap, but that aero handicap system has also been approved: https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/27/lower-budget-cap-aero-handicap-and-more-cost-saving-f1-rules-officially-approved/
Still no word on the removal of DRS?
As far as I remember, they said that DRS will stay on cars but that they may not include DRS zones on some weekends? That sounded vague, I was expecting a clearer decision.
Using DRS in '22 and beyond would be the final straw for me - I've not actually missed F1 very much this year anyway.
They've fully invested on including DRS in F2 and F3 at this point, and the influx of new fans since the Netflix series doesn't care about it or know anything different. I don't think they'll ever get rid of it.
DTM is even worse, where they have DRS and push-to-pass, and each are limited to a certain number of uses. But DTM will be dead in three months anyway.
Yes, goodbye Audi. Always that risk when you rely on manufacturers who use racing as a PR side project rather than on teams who exist for no purpose but to go racing, and that's a good reason for introducing F1's budget cap and making it a profitable enterprise for people like Mercedes & Renault.
As for DRS... cars in '22 should be able to follow through corners quite closely, so can you imagine how early down the straight a DRS pass would be completed?
Since they define the DRS zones for every Grand Prix, I reckon we'll learn about the need of DRS in 2022's pre-season. If it turns out the cars can follow each other pretty closely indeed, the DRS zone may simply be skipped for certain races where it is no longer needed, but perhaps the Monaco GP would still use it down the Start/Finish "straight" and in similar tight locations where overtaking is nigh impossible.
Because the top-side aero will be less important, which is what will make following closely easier to begin with, DRS will naturally become less effective anyway. The rear wing won't be creating as much downforce or causing as much drag.
I just don't think they're going to get rid of it anywhere. Shorten the zones, maybe, but many of the zones are already too long and they don't seem to have much urgency to fix them.
In my mind, I'm imagining DRS on a '22 car as being comparable to using it in Monza right now - with the proviso that the chaser could be tucked up closer heading into any activation zone.
I'm still optimistic that DRS won't be used with the new cars, F1 has put a lot into this aero overhaul - this & the budget cap are central to the new, fitter, leaner F1 - and I can't see the logic in persisting with this wing gimmick. Okay, perhaps an argument could be made that a select few tracks would still 'benefit' from DRS, places like Budapest & Melbourne, but for the vast majority of venues it would make an absolute farce not only of the effort expended by Brawn's design team, but of the decision to force F1 teams to fundamentally redesign their cars.
Aero not such an issue in F2 or F3 - truly depressing that they pushed DRS on to the lower forumlae where drivers learn their craft - but presumably in time aspects of the new F1 philosophy will filter down the ranks.
By 2025, Pat Symonds is looking at two initiatives to reduce weight. That's about time!
https://www.racefans.net/2021/04/07/f1-planning-new-active-aero-for-2025-cars-to-slash-fuel-consumption/
1. Synthetic fuels with more energy per kilogram, effectively requiring less fuel for a race distance. This would reduce car weight by up to 75 kgs at the start of races, and 5ish kgs during qualifying runs
2. Active aero (think DRS) permanently in use in straights to reduce drag. If everyone including the defender uses DRS when going straight, at least it's not an overtaking gimmick anymore and I'd be perfectly OK with that
Quote from: Chrill on April 07, 2021, 12:54:50 AM
By 2025, Pat Symonds is looking at two initiatives to reduce weight. That's about time!
Cut down on the pies and take more exercise?
Synthetic fuels sound good, but active aero I'm a bit iffy about. If it's used to shed drag on the straights, will a following car gain less from a tow relative to the car in front than they do now?
Quote from: Penfold on April 12, 2021, 05:12:19 AM
Cut down on the pies and take more exercise?
Confidence is a preference for the habitual voyeur of what is known as parklife.
Crap, why didn't I say "cut down on his pork life and get some exercise"....