Future Sounds of F1

[Penfold]

No, not a compendium of upcoming 'F1 Rocks' performances (sorry), instead join me in welcoming an exclusive home for the interminable story that is F1's proposed 2013 engine regs.  Previous coverage has been haphazardly dumped into the 'News Snippets' thread (or elsewhere, I forget), but given that the sport seems determined to drag this story out I've decided to cram all pertinent developments into one spot.  Right here.

Beginning with differences in opinion between various parties: http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2011/06/17/f1-engine-debate-rages-on/

I have to side with that McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh said not long go; Turbocharged V6 engines. It's a downgrade, but not to a 1.6 litre straight four. You find those engines in a Ford Mondeo, damnit. I would personally support a move back to the V10s of past times, but I know it will never happen. Formula 1 has lost its soul with all these damned rule changes..

Yep.  I'm hoping a V6 turbo-shaped compromize will be reached.  Although I'd still like to see a limit put on fuel consumption (not too low!) and give the engineers pretty much free rein on engine size, configuration, etc.


And here it is, a V6 turbo-shaped compromize (with a one year delay included as a Brucie bonus): http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13878359.stm

For 2014 as well. Gives us two more years of these engines. Will this postpone all the other rules for 2013, or will we have 3 major rule overhauls in four years? (2011, 2013, 2014)

I believe the delay affects only the engines, with upgraded KERS & aero revisions kept on the 2013 schedule.  I'm sure the Beeb presenters will discuss the issue this weekend, will report back if all rule changes have shifted.

I hope that they dooo have a sports bar in Skala! If they do, I hope my friends bother joining me into town on Sunday around 3pm local!

Guess that depends on how much 'quiet recuperation' they require after Saturday night.  And whether they're F1 nuts.


Engine delay & shift to V6 design confirmed by FIA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13878359.stm

Good to see max revs have been upped from the proposed 12,000 to 15,000.  Done to allay concerns over damaging the aural experience of F1.


Dear reader, I imagine that, like myself, barely an hour passes when you don't throw back your head & wail at the top of your lungs: WHY, OH GOD, WHY DID THEY NEARLY RUN WITH 4-CYLINDER TURBOS.  Well now we have an answer... Audi committed itself to entering F1 providing that was the direction taken: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/52832.html

Audi then promptly backtracked on its threatened foray into F1, leaving us with an engine proposal almost universally unpopular.


Reporters get a sneak peek of Merc's V6 turbo: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/01/13/mercedes-f1-turbo-engine-breaks-cover-and-it-sounds-sweet/

So it's slightly quieter but with a deeper sound.

First I've read of the 100 kg (about 140 litres) fuel allowance for 2014; quite a substantial drop from the 150-odd kilos of fuel they load up with under current regulations.

Well then, need to make the engines a lot more fuel efficient. I guess they weren't REALLY made with that in mind at first.

They'll be loaded up with energy recovery systems (kinetic & exhaust heat) to aid them in this task, plus of course they're down-sized turbos to begin with.

Another hint that Honda engines could make a welcome return: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/02/26/honda-may-have-secret-f1-turbo-engine-project-in-progress/

McLaren-Honda? Yes please.

Has a lovely ring to it.  Now if we could just get them to run in the old Marlboro livery....

Some say booze is just as addicting as cigarettes.  Oh well rules are rules.

I support a turbocharger idea.  But I want it on the current V8's .

I fail to see why cigarette and alcohol branding would be any different. Ban both or ban none, really. If we're on that sponsorship topic again

I'd say neither, but I'm sure the EU will get around to banning alcohol advertizing during this decade - and presumably gambling ads; and they are the people who run our countries now....

So, we'll end up with silly telecom and bank marketing. Vodafone, Santander, etc.? I can't even begin to imagine those brands on F1 cars..

I take your (sarcastic) point in the spirit intended but I will casually mention that F1 is not exactly overburdened with sponsorship cash these days, so let's hope no other revenue streams (e.g. from alcohol brands) are denied to the teams.

You are indeed right. I'LL START A SWEDISH TEAM, BACKED BY IKEA. Yup. They're all rich and such. Engines manufactured by Koenigsegg. Minor sponsors include H&M and Absolut Vodka. Or Kopparbergs Cider.



This is only slightly Photoshopped. Believe it or not, I based this car on the Williams car. I know, it's hard to see.

What remarkable skills you possess; that photoshopping blends seamlessly onto the, what did you say it was, Williams?

Just need a fancy, headline-grabbing name for your team....

Yes. The name is a work in progress.


FlatpaCabba Racing? Hint to Ikea and to Abba. Very good.
IKEABBA?
Svea Rike F1...

[Penfold]

Are Honda & McLaren already hard at it (the 'it' being designing a V6 turbo): http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/03/03/reports-claim-honda-engineers-already-working-at-mclaren/

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/3/14419.html
Force India are aiming to remain in Formula 1, clearly.

All that pointless talk of a switch to Ferrari power; still, never hurts to have a possible alternative supplier when negotiating a new deal.

Marussia to run Ferrari or Merc engines for 2014 (well, Renault not interested in supplying them so who else would they use?): http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/03/29/marussia-to-use-ferrari-or-mercedes-power-in-2014/

Marussia Ferrari is the logical bet since they can just take Toro Rosso's place and Ferrari would then deal with the same number of teams.

V6 turbos "sound like lawnmowers": http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/04/04/ecclestone-still-making-noise-about-turbo-engine-sounds/

So according to Bernie the engines won't be revving to their 16,000 RPM limit because the maximum fuel flow rate is set too low.  Oh goody.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/04/18/new-turbo-f1-cars-could-be-five-seconds-slower-in-2014/

Bernie is afraid the next-gen F1 cars will be only slightly faster than current GP2 cars (Caterham would then be slower than GP2, I suppose). Article also mentions that Sauber and McLaren may both run Honda engines in 2015.

Fatter and slower with every passing year.  I doubt we'll lose five seconds for 2014, but a two- or three-second deficit wouldn't surprise.  As little Olly Twist said: Please, Sir, I want some more... powerful engines in Formula One.

It's a shame that cars from ten years ago were so superior to the cars of today. It's not as though 290 kilometres per hour is safer than 305 kilometres per hour. Reducing top speed and also aerodynamics in order to "promote safety and overtaking" is silly. If we are to have DRS, at least let the cars go fast so that the car in front can still reach some sort of speed. If speeds increase overall, it would be more difficult to catch a tow and therefore it would be more difficult to make a DRS overtake stick, although it would remain very possible still.

Top speed is overrated. Look at RBR, they have usually lowest or among lowest top speeds, yet they're winning.

I meant top speed overall, not "Fastest at the end of the longest straight"

Just another story on a future McLaren-Honda tie-up: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/13/mclaren-set-for-free-honda-engines-as-of-2015/

Those prices quoted for customer V6 turbo packages - Renault stated at EUR 20 and EUR 23 million per season, Mercedes at 17-19 million, and Ferrari reportedly just EUR 15 and EUR 17 million.  I know there's no link between the two, but this pricing order is a perfect reversal of buying these companies' road-going machines.


It's now confirmed that Honda will provide engines & ERS to McLaren from 2015: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/5/14561.html

Indeed. Woohoo! Rumour has it we will also get a Sauber-Honda from 2015. That would leave us like this:

Mercedes-Mercedes
Force India-Mercedes

Red Bull-Renault
Lotus-Renault
Toro Rosso-Renault
Williams-Renault
Caterham-Renault

McLaren-Honda
Sauber-Honda

Ferrari-Ferrari
Marussia-Ferrari

This is assuming Toro Rosso goes for Renault and Marussia opts for Ferrari of course. But I believe the most recent rumour made it clear that they were.

I also doubt the lot will stick with Renault assuming they don't have some many-year contracts (especially well, all of them except Red Bulls I guess), since Renault engines are supposed to be the most expensive. Can easily see Lotus, Caterham or Williams switching, probably not to Ferrari, but maybe Merc or Honda.

Lotus has been thrown out there as a potential Honda convert.  Perhaps Renault will be obliged to lower its sticker price if too many others look to be deserting.

Caterham can't switch, basically. The car brand Caterham has a deal with Renault. They're connected.

Some rumours have emerged that Marussia will run as Marussia-Mugen in 2014 to test out the Honda F1 engine before they run as Marussia-Honda and McLaren-Honda in 2015.

There's me thinking that Marussia-Ferrari was a done deal, but I guess we haven't yet had it confirmed; interesting if they go the Mugen route.

Well, if they get used as guinea pigs by Honda they will surely get a cheaper deal. Running as Mugen will show people "No, this is not the final Honda engine, don't expect much just yet" and will keep Honda safe for when McLaren joins in 2015. Also, the engine may be great and help Marussia up into the midfield. Who knows?

Morten Harket?

[Penfold]

www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/17/most-teams-unable-to-afford-2014-f1-v6-turbo-engines/

"He wrote that, world champions and 'works' partner Red Bull aside, 2014 customers Williams, Caterham, Toro Rosso and even the highly competitive Lotus cannot afford to pay French supplier Renault the fee of EUR 23 million per season.

Mercedes, supplying McLaren and Force India, has reportedly lowered its price to between 18 and 20 million, while Sauber and Marussia are being asked for 15m by Ferrari."

Who knew Ferrari would become the budget option? If those numbers are correct, I would expect some of the teams may consider a surprise switch to Ferrari engines. Lotus-Ferrari. Caterham-Ferrari. Williams-Ferrari.

Well, that's what I said. Lotus have said they plan on sticking with Renault for the time being. Which can mean anything. Williams-Ferrari? You're not serious, are you. Williams. Ferrari. Ahem, no go. Sorry.

http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/07626

"In summary, Renault is likely to power Red Bull (Infiniti), Toro Rosso and Caterham. Mercedes will supply its works team, McLaren - who will later switch to Honda - Force India, Williams and possibly Lotus, whilst Ferrari will power its works team, Sauber, Marussia and maybe Lotus."

Likely to be Williams-Mercedes from next year: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/26/mercedes-confirms-williams-engine-negotiations/

Renault-Toro Rosso confirmed for 2014: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/26/renault-confirms-toro-rosso-engine-supply-deal/

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/5/14622.html
Williams-Mercedes now also confirmed. Does this mean Williams will effectively replace McLaren as the second in command at Mercedes?

2014:
Mercedes:
Mercedes
McLaren (Honda from 2015)
Williams
Force India

Renault:
Red Bull (Infiniti)
Toro Rosso
Caterham

Ferrari:
Ferrari
Sauber

Unconfirmed:
Lotus
Marussia

Also.... Rumours of Ford going for a 2015 entry as well: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/30/report-links-ford-with-f1-turbo-era-return/

... which would mean five engine suppliers for what will likely be ten teams; making it tricky for anyone to supply three teams - the 'optimal' level according to some bloke from Renault.

Honda will fail unless cheap.
Ford will be too lazy.

The teams starting the first year with the new engines will be the teams of choice.  New manufacturers can't be expected to jump in and create something worthy can they?

Sure they can succeed in making a good engine, why not?
Anyway, it's worth noting engine development will be frozen again after 2018 I think. With every year less changes/corrections allowed from 2014 or 2015 on. Also: most suppliers are going for long term contracts (see Williams and Mercedes for 5 years), because even if they switch after 2018 (or whatever year it is), and they get some interesting info to other engine manufacturer it won't be of any use, because of development ban.

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-227047.html
Engines to be more powerful next season than they are now.

Well, more powerful for qualifying.  For the race, cars will be limited to 100 kg of fuel, down from 150 kg under current rules, the expected consequence of which is engines being kept comfortably below their 15,000 rpm limit - exactly how far down dependent on track characteristics.  Of course this is just so much conjecture at the moment, none outside the engine co's can have a handle on how thirsty each V6 will be.

[Penfold]

Ferrari fear that 2014 will see a return to frequent retirements before teams figure out their new engines. I'm sure they're right. Yolo.

http://grandprix247.com/2013/07/02/ferrari-expect-reliability-to-be-an-issue-for-new-2014-turbo-engines/

Also, these numbers are crayzee.

The energy recovery system will be powered off the exhaust and will deliver around an extra 160 horsepower for over 30 seconds each lap. The engines will have a rev limit of 15000 rpm and have to last for around 5000 kilometres as opposed to the current 2000.

ERS will be powered off the exhaust and braking energy, just to correct the people whose living comes from writing this stuff.  Can't remember whether ERS will deploy automatically (i.e. determined by throttle position) or still by driver pushing a button.


This will thrill Chrill, F1 cars set to be even slower next year: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/07/03/f1-cars-two-to-three-seconds-slower-in-2014-whiting/

Nonsensical statement alert: "I think the efficiency is the key thing," he [Charlie Whiting] added. "Just to be absolutely clear, though, you won't see cars running out of fuel because there's no limit on the amount of fuel a team can put in the car. There's a limit to how much they can use during the race."

So teams can only use 100 kg fuel in a race, but they won't run out because they can choose to begin the race with an extra 10/20/30 kg sloshing about the tank.  Umm, but then if they use any of that extra presumably disqualification will swiftly follow once Mr. FIA checks the mandatory fuel-flow meters.  So, erm, who would ever start a race with more than 100 kg of fuel onboard?

101 kg. Roughly, you can't end race with an empty tank, due to those fuel check-ups. But yes, I have to agree, complete nonsense there from Charlie.

Oh yes, I clean forgot the extra kilo for post-race fuel sample.

Since we're down to 22 cars now, is it not time we open up the grid for new participants come 2015? I'm sure with the new engine formula there would be interest from several car makers. Rumours have been floating around regarding Volkswagen/Porsche, Audi, Hyundai and Toyota. There is technically room for two more teams but maybe they should only add one more team to the series. Unless of course poor Sauber goes boom. Or Marussia. Or Caterham. Or Force India. Or even Lotus. Or maybe Williams.

Audi/Porsche already said they don't want F1. Toyota just left, I can hardly see them returning right away, even if Honda is doing the same. Hyundai? I dunno.. perhaps. Point is, it costs too much. And Bernie doesn't want more teams. He wants less teams, 10 max. I'm sure he wouldn't mind being down to 5 teams, and 3 cars per team or 4 even. But then again, he just said that Sauber belongs to F1 and shouldn't be allowed to err leave the scene. Surprisingly enough.

In 5 years time I can't see Marussia or Caterham still being in F1. Force India, Williams and Sauber will follow shortly if not before. Lotus may leave as early as next season but they may as well stay for 10 more years. Odd with them. Mercedes seems to be in a similar position as Lotus, albeit for different reasons. So Mr. Ecclestone might even live to see the 5 team field and signor Montezemolo will finally get his wet dream come true. Of course, by then we'll only be racing on tracks with max. 10k spectators. On a good day.

What Ljud said.  Costs are simply too high and the payouts too uneven.  Unless Bernie has a change of heart on how 2014's dosh will be divvied up, I don't see us having even eleven teams by the end of next year.  Can't for the life of me think why any car co. would want to spend vast sums of money when the prospects of success are so low; most likely you're talking several years of $100 million losses before even nibbling at the heels of the top runners... I'd love to see that business presentation put to the top bods of Audi, Hyundai, etc.

Alternative is to follow Merc's route and purchase an existing team, which is surely a far, far more attractive proposition than starting from scratch, but of course doesn't add to the field.  Of course it goes without saying that the likelihood of any independent racing teams joining the ranks lie somewhere between no chance and fat chance.


Rumours and hearsay suggest Merc's V6 turbo will be the power of the field: http://grandprix247.com/2013/08/15/mercedes-f1-turbo-engine-to-have-100-bhp-advantage-in-2014/

Worth mentioning (again) that in 2014 cars will be limited to 100 kg of fuel for race day.  So you can whack that horsepower-pumping, fire-breathing, tarmac-shredding beast of a qualifying engine in the back of your car, but on Sunday afternoon it will boil down to fuel efficiency.  I'm so excited by the prospect.

I'm worried about the prospect. The fuel saving is absurdly low. Engines will barely be running at all. Adrian Sutil said that in the first few races (before teams figure out fuel consumption properly), we may very well see drivers having to turn down the output massively over the last few laps or even run out of juice completely.

Yep, people (Bernie, I think) successfully pushed for a higher rev-limit than the FIA initially suggested, but with so little fuel on-board teams will likely stay well below the permitted 15,000 RPMs - at least on race day.  What is the point of constraining F1 cars in this way?  Sometimes seems the FIA is concocting rules solely to piss me off, in which case they are bloody excellent at their jobs.

[Penfold]

Exhaustive rundown detailing how development of the V6 turbos will be gradually frozen: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/16/fia-to-guard-against-extreme-engines-in-2014/


Sauber commits to a new multi-year technical partnership with Ferrari; in short this means their engines, gearboxes, and ERS will sport natty little prancing horse badges: http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/04/sauber-confirm-use-ferrari-v6-turbo-engine-in-2014/

Well then, the engine situation is clearing up. Caterham have confirmed Renault, yes? Only Lotus remain, then.

Given Boullier's recent statement that Lotus would welcome increased involvement (and money!) from Renault, surely the engine situation for them is set.  I'd actually assumed a deal had already been done... guess they're discussing the finer details of a new contract.

I guess so.

Ferrari:
Ferrari
Sauber
Marussia

Mercedes:
Mercedes
McLaren
Force India
Williams

Renault:
Red Bull
Toro Rosso
Caterham
(Lotus)

Looks fair to me. Then, in 2015, McLaren will leave Mercedes and go all Honda on our asses.

... but will someone besides McLaren go to Honda?  Renault has talked of the advantage in having multiple teams running their engines, so one would expect Honda to try and lure at least one more team to their side.

Most probably, yes. What are the plans for Force India, Lotus, Williams and Caterham in 2015? Sauber seems to have confirmed a multi-year contract as has Marussia.

Force India in long-term agreement with Mercedes: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/3/14419.html

This piece on the Williams/Merc. tie-up also states long-term: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/5/14622.html

Caterham to use Renault powertrain for 2014-2016 seasons: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/caterham-confirms-renault-engines-for-2014-2016/

Lotus is still up in the air, or at least not finalized, but I'd be amazed if they don't conclude a non-short-term deal with Renault.  So, barring a new entrant in 2015 (fat chance), that leaves Honda with, umm, McLaren.  Well, I'm sure one of the above would happily break a contract if Honda's offering was sufficiently compelling, i.e. several million quid cheaper.


New engine format to favour works teams, says Brawn: http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/18/works-teams-to-have-v6-engine-advantage-says-brawn/

Not surprising that McLaren was keen as mustard to get back with Honda.

Engine comparison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtrSNFjkGdU
A bit off-topic perhaps, but I like them sounds.

Ha, I was just expecting a vid with recordings of the actual engines, but that was ten times better.  Cheers for the linky.

Just another story on a future McLaren-Honda tie-up: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/13/mclaren-set-for-free-honda-engines-as-of-2015/

Those prices quoted for customer V6 turbo packages - Renault stated at EUR 20 and EUR 23 million per season, Mercedes at 17-19 million, and Ferrari reportedly just EUR 15 and EUR 17 million.  I know there's no link between the two, but this pricing order is a perfect reversal of buying these companies' road-going machines.

Heh. Renault the most expensive. That must've been a great deal, yup. Heh. Oh, the irony.

[Penfold]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/11/21/horner-makes-case-twin-turbo-v6s-standard-ers/

Here here, this is not a bad idea from Horner. Revamp of engines from 2016:
Still the same V6 as today, but twin turbo instead to help the sound. Then, one ERS for all the teams to keep costs down and help level the playing field.

Huh, this is actually not a bad idea. I think it's quite a fair one.

Keep the costs up, ey? Let's completely revamp engines in 2018 again!

Honda gets permission to fiddle with its engine during the season: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30860212


Proposal to bump engine power for 2017 by increasing fuel-flow limit and maximum fuel allowance: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117620

Hallelujah.  I was saying at the beginning of last season (or perhaps even before then) that both these limits were set needlessly low... nice of F1 to catch up.


Red Bull and Toro Rosso to use Renault engines in 2017 & '18: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/29/red-bull-commit-renault-2018/


So Sauber has elected to run this year's Ferrari engine for 2017, taking the hit in bhp, efficiency, etc (which shouldn't be as marked as with a 2015 vs. 2016 unit) so that they can get a head start on chassis/aero development: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126721

Which basically means they are aiming for 2018. Maximise the chassis for 2017 and then enter 2018 with a decent car and a decent engine. That should lead to decent points.

If it works out, I can see Sauber emulating their 2015 campaign where they scored decent points early on but dropped away over the season. Akin to what Toro Rosso has done this year.

I assume Sauber will save themselves a good few quid by running the old-spec engine next year, surely there must be a decent discount?

As for 2018... there is vague talk of them having Honda units.

Not just vague talk. From what I've heard, there's already ink at the bottom of the paper from both Japan and Switzerland. The only hurdle is McLaren who are against it.

I can understand vetoing Red Bull through a desire to be the top-performing Honda team, but Sauber?  How far down the grid must we travel before finding someone McLaren feels they can comfortably beat....

I can understand vetoing Red Bull through a desire to be the top-performing Honda team, but Sauber?  How far down the grid must we travel before finding someone McLaren feels they can comfortably beat....

Well, let's hope Sauber builds a great car and Honda does wonders with their engine. Ericsson the 2018 world champion without a doubt.

[Penfold]

Ferrari hoping its 'double anchor' injection system will be ready to provide a boost later this season: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-evaluating-radical-double-anchor-injector-idea-879930/

[Penfold]

F1 bods popping on down to Paris to discuss post 2021 engine regs. and Audi is said to be sending a representative: http://en.f1i.com/news/263462-audi-attend-next-f1-engine-meeting.html

[Chrill]

I believe this isn't the first time they've sent a representative, so it might not mean much. They're there to see where F1 is going and then decide if such a direction would be of interest.

I'd quite like the following:
V8 hybrid (brakes only) engines with turbochargers.

This would remove the crazy fourth engine charging up from the exhaust fumes, which is what is causing problems. You'd have a proper V8 with turbo, and a lovely KERS system that drivers no not deploy manually but is instead operated automatically like today.

EDIT: Or better yet, give them a more open design spec and let them have a go at it. Maximum revs, maximum size (liters), optional turbo and hybrid systems.

Teams can choose a weaker but more reliable, ligher, and fuel efficient engine. Take a look at the 1995 season when we had V8, V10, and V12 cars all on the grid together. Ferrari actually won with an outdated V12 in 1995 (the last F1 race won by a car with a V12 engine) Benetton and Williams won with V10 engines. Footwork, Simtek, Pacific, Forti, Minardi, and Sauber all used V8s. Sauber scored a podium, so that year saw 8, 10, and 12 cylinder engines on the podium at various points.

[Penfold]

I'm all for an open design spec.  Maybe keep a fuel load limit but let them decide no. of cylinders, capacity, whether to run turbos, KERS, heat recovery systems, etc, etc.  Have to adjust the approach to minimum weight requirement to allow for those choosing a simple, and therefore lighter, solution.

[Penfold]

Re: FIA engine jamboree.

The meeting resulted in broad agreement for the future evolution of Formula One power units, with all parties seemingly aligned in their focus on:

- A desire to maintain F1 as the pinnacle of motor sport technology, and as a laboratory for developing technology that is relevant to road cars
- Striving for future power units to be powerful, while becoming simpler and less costly to develop and produce
- Improving the sound of the power units
- A desire to allow drivers to drive harder at all times.


In other words... tweaked versions of the current units which can pump out a little more HP and some extra decibels, all at a slightly less eye-wateringly expensive cost.

[Chrill]

Basically let's make the current engine formula less refined and more raw. I like that. Also, I guess the era of fuel saving is over. Are we looking at a return to in-race refuelling for the next engine formula?

[Penfold]

I like my overtaking to be done out on the track so I hope not.  Wouldn't object to them upping the annual engine (sorry, power unit) allocation, but that doesn't exactly sit well alongside reducing the cost of supply.

[Chrill]

They'll definitely keep it at 4 per season, if not even reducing it to 3. Or how about 1? Same engine all year. Sucks to damage it.

[Penfold]

I'd probably ramp it to an engine for every three races, but what was wrong with having a measly five new units a year?  Why is the FIA such a pain in the arse?